Russia’s invasion of Ukraine strengthened our relationship with the Chechen people. We took a fresh look at the history of their wars with Russia, in which more than 300 thousand people died.
About why the Chechens are fighting on the side of Ukraine and our victory is so important to them, about the “good Russians”, the protest potential of the Buryats, Yakuts and Tatars, and also about why the collapse of Russia is inevitable, the leader of Ichkeria, Akhmed Zakayev, spoke in an exclusive interview with Telegraph “ .
Masks fall off
– You recently declared the illegitimacy of Russia as a state. What was meant?
– My deep conviction is that this is no longer a state in the generally accepted sense, but a terrorist entity, and it has not been legitimate since 2002. I’ll explain why.
In 1992, when a new Russian pseudo-democratic empire was being created, it was created precisely on the basis of federalism: the subjects that received sovereignty in their time, voluntarily united and signed a federal treaty.
Many people forget that this agreement was signed for 10 years, that is, until 2002. In 2002, it was supposed to be extended, but this did not happen. That is, since 2002, what the so-called. “collective Putin” is an illegitimate state entity. And Chechnya did not sign this agreement at all.
Why is the world so afraid of the collapse of Russia? Why does the conditional collective West have fears that this could lead to chaos, uncertainty, and grave consequences?
– This is the work of the so-called. “good Russians” – the so-called “Russian liberals”, democrats who are actively working with all political parties and movements in the West. But they are not the opposition, but part of the Russian system, which lobbies interests in the West. Putin is working with the left, and the “liberal opposition” is working with the right.
At the tribunal, all this “liberal opposition” should be held not as witnesses, but as accomplices in the genocide and crimes committed against the Chechen people. These are the people who applauded Yeltsin when he started the First Chechen War, these are the people who brought Putin to power and fully supported him in the war against the Chechen people. And in Chechnya, war crimes have been committed, which are qualified by all international human rights organizations as crimes against humanity, which have no statute of limitations.
– These “good Russians” are also on the air of our TV channels.
– They pose a greater threat than Putin and his system – everything is clear with them. The world knows who they are. But the “opposition” that is in Europe today is disorienting the West.– The masks fall off, it’s worth asking the question: is Crimea Ukraine? Or does Chechnya have the right to independence? And suddenly a mini-Putin cuts through them.
– It’s not about Putin, the system cannot be personified. Putin appeared because he was in demand by society and supported by the West. Their silence when he announced that he would “wet” the Chechens. We can’t hope that if Putin doesn’t exist, the war will end and Russia will become a legal liberal-democratic state.
Over the years, we have seen that as soon as any democratic reforms were planned in Russia, the liberal democrats found themselves in a dilemma. The peoples colonially dependent on Russia declared their independence and desire for sovereignty. And this system or the so-called. the Russian “liberal democrats”, in the past it was Yeltsin, Chubais, Gaidar – the entire young reformist elite of Russia – had to either make concessions to national entities and really allow them to become independent, or suppress these freedoms. Yeltsin unleashed a war in Chechnya. This is the answer.
We have witnessed such behavior more than once – Chechnya, Georgia, Moldova, now – Ukraine. This time, the world should not be fooled into believing that the situation with regime change will improve and Russia will no longer pose a threat to all of humanity. This is the greatest delusion. Only the transformation of this state formation can guarantee the security of the whole world and humanity, I am absolutely convinced of this.
– There is an opinion that in the event of a transformation, Russia will be mired in a civil war. This is also feared within Russia itself. It is no secret that conditions for such conflicts were created in the same Caucasus. Including the way the borders of the regions are drawn, there are disputed territories everywhere.
– As for the Caucasus, our peoples lived peacefully until the moment when Russia came to us. We did not have wars between the peoples of the North Caucasus. And these opinions and moods are the work of Russian liberal democrats, who escalate the situation in the West by talking about an inevitable civil war. But Russia brought war and conflicts, acting on the principle of “divide and rule.”
Prigogine’s rebellion as a special operation
– And how do you assess the recent rebellion of Prigogine?
“There was no rebellion. It was a special operation. “Collective Putin” carried it out to strengthen the system. Look who won? They observed one day and identified all the dissatisfied.
From the moment Putin came to power, the country has been run by people from the KGB. The only structure that was not completely subordinated to this system was the Ministry of Defense, because there the hereditary generals were not completely “digested” by the KGB. And so Prigozhin’s special operation was aimed at taking control of the entire Ministry of Defense.
– Unfortunately, we see some lethargy of Western politicians in their reaction to events. The war in Ukraine excited them a little, but all the same, the reaction to the same explosion at the Kakhovskaya hydroelectric power station is insufficient. What else can we do to make them aware that they will have to intervene? In the fate of Russia so for sure
— The West is in all respects prudent, pragmatic and, of course, cynical. They betrayed the Chechens in their time. They calculated that we are a Muslim nation of only one and a half million, and they need to observe their interests in the new “democratic” Russia.
And they did not spare Ukraine, and they were excited not because they considered the war unfair. After all, it was already obvious to everyone what was going on. It is obvious that a hotbed for the conflict in Ukraine was prepared, then the so-called. Crimean autonomy. We could see Russia’s plans to unleash a war and freeze the conflict, as in Moldova and Abkhazia. But Putin in Ukraine went further – he decided that the inhabitants of the eastern regions dream of being in Russia.
If you remember, before committing aggression, Putin issued an ultimatum to the US and NATO in 2021. He demanded to return the situation to the 1997 borders. That is, the trends were on the surface, and the West understood this.
(The Russian draft treaty with NATO included requirements for the withdrawal from the territory of countries that became NATO members after 1997 of all armed forces and weapons that appeared there in subsequent years; the exclusion of further NATO expansion, including the accession of Ukraine; NATO’s renunciation of any military activity on Ukraine, in Eastern Europe, Transcaucasia and Central Asia and much more. – Auth .)
The West intervened because it realized that after the conquest of Ukraine, it would be absolutely no difficulty for Russia to conquer Europe and gain influence on the EU countries. And they began to make efforts to help Ukraine win.
– From the point of view of a non-military person, these efforts are still insufficient and very delayed in time.
They are not interested in a quick victory. Ukraine will reach the borders of 1991, and Russia’s potential has not been spent even by 10-15%? That is, Russia would remain a strong power, which would take several years to gain strength and return to the new February 24th. Therefore, today the war is going to wear out Russia, weakening in military-political and economic terms.
But when it weakens, and the regions and republics begin to declare their independence, I am sure that the Western world will join these processes. Now they consider it premature, so as not to harden Russia and consolidate it as a power that is being dismembered and against which the whole world is working.
“They are already broadcasting to the population that they have been at war with NATO for a year and a half.
Yes, but if Western politicians today began to publicly declare their commitment to the dismemberment, disintegration, transformation of Russia, this propaganda could work 100% and consolidate society.
Now this is not happening, because the West emphasizes that it is not interested in the collapse of Russia. That they want Russia to become a democratic state of law, that is, to leave the occupied territories and arrange its relations with Ukraine and other neighboring states in accordance with the principles and norms of international law. But this is impossible.
It is necessary that the world be ready for the victory of Ukraine and for the fact that the state entity that we knew before the start of the war as Russia will no longer exist. If it remains, there will be no victory, no guarantee that it will not be repeated in a more violent form in the future.
We, Chechens, know this from our own experience. Each turn that winds up in the war with Russia wore a more violent form. Chechens spoke about the deportation of 1944 as an incredible horror. When the first Russian-Chechen war began, the Chechens said: it turns out that deportation was nothing (although then 50% of the population was lost). But war is a real horror. And when the second military campaign began, the same Chechens said: “It turns out that the First Chechen War was just entertainment. Now it’s real horror.”
Grinded by the system
— Ukraine had a protest potential. In Chechnya, it was also powerful, you fought against Russia for many years. But Buryatia, Tatarstan, Yakutia? Their national core has been eroded for decades. Their self-consciousness was destroyed. Physically, many young men from these regions died in Ukraine. Are the peoples of Russia really ready for independence, or has the system ground them down and is it more realistic to talk about the separation of only the Caucasus?
— I am returning to the Chechen theme again. For all nationalities and republics, a very terrible lesson was the desire of the Chechens for freedom and independence. They saw that the Chechens were not just left alone with Russia. They were betrayed with the wording “this is an internal affair of Russia.” During the Chechen wars, more than 300 thousand civilians died, 42 thousand of them were children.
The terrible example of Chechnya largely extinguished the impulse for freedom that existed in these national state formations. Therefore, today they are not ready to start an open confrontation. But I assure you, as soon as Russia weakens and the Western countries begin to seriously engage in its dismantling, transformation or reforms – call it what you like – all these nationalities will express a desire to be free, independent. They will want to become the owners of their destiny and the territories that belong to them, but which have been occupied and exploited by Russia for a long time.
But I want to emphasize that the system that has developed over several centuries in Russia itself cannot be called Russian. This system has been formed over the course of several centuries by the [outer] world.
– Do you mean connivance?
– More than 400 generals who fought with the peoples of the Caucasus from Russia were not Russians. They were Germans, French, Dutch, Belgians, British and so on. We all know who Peter the Great is, we know where the Romanov dynasty came from. Russians and colonially dependent nations were used as cannon fodder for their own empire.
That is, we are now dealing with a system that was created by the whole world. It cannot be attributed only to Russians, because there are practically no Russians as an ethnic group. Today there are Russianists, racists and fascists who declare their demands not only to the Ukrainian people, but to the whole world. This Russism took place and organized on Chechen blood. Today he is trying to improve and establish himself in Ukrainian.
And, returning to your question, now these national formations of Russia are not ready to declare freedom, because they do not understand what will happen to them. They saw the example of Chechnya.
The world today, unfortunately, is not ready to support their initiatives. Even Ukraine is not ready to support their political sovereignty. Without support, their political initiatives will not matter. They will simply sacrifice themselves.
Second front in Russia
– We waited in vain for the opening of a second front inside Russia?
– The Mountain Republic can become the second front to help Ukraine (this project of the confederation of the peoples of the North Caucasus was proclaimed on May 11, 1918, the Republic of the North Caucasus and Abkhazia entered the Mountain Republic. – Ed. ). On May 27, a conference dedicated to its 105th anniversary was held in Kyiv. This conference has just adopted one point in its resolution, to hold a constituent assembly to prepare and restore the legal basis of the then state formation. If Ukraine supports and cooperates with this project, as it did in 1918-1919, we have absolutely every chance to open a second front. And for this Caucasian state to become a buffer between Russia and Ukraine and help ensure that Russia never commits such aggression again.
This is a real project in which the United States, Turkey, Great Britain, and the European Union are interested. This confederate formation can become an analogue of the EU in the Caucasus.
– Is there any support from other countries of the Islamic world, Saudi Arabia, for example?
– If we talk about the Islamic Muslim world, about its political leadership, then they betrayed the Chechen people. The extremist religious sect that was formed in the North Caucasus under the leadership of Ramzan Kadyrov, Akhmat-Strength, was created with the support of Saudi Arabia. The ideology of this sect poses a threat not only to the peoples of the Caucasus and Muslims, but also to Europe.
Today, this sect justifies the murders in Bucha, the rape of Ukrainian women, participation in the war against the Ukrainian people. The responsibility for its actions lies with both Saudi Arabia and the Islamic world. That is why today we have begun the process of initiating a separate tribunal against Kadyrov for the creation of this extremist religious sect. And we hope to find Ukraine’s support in this matter.
What is the victory of Ukraine
– What about the elites of Chechnya, who, in the event of turmoil, will certainly try to subjugate not only Chechnya itself, but also, perhaps, other republics of the Caucasus. How do you see the development of the situation?
– I can assure you that the victory of Ukraine will mean the victory of the entire Caucasus and other colonially dependent peoples. I’m just 100% sure of this, because after the military defeat of Russia in Ukraine, it will be a completely different country.
Therefore, today we so boldly declare to the peoples of the North Caucasus, and other republics and nationalities, that they must be ready for these changes. And our forum for the decolonization of the peoples of Russia is called upon to pave the way for this.
They should not be ready to open a second front now and get involved in the war, but to do everything so that Ukraine wins this war. This requires civil disobedience, so that they refuse to be drafted into the army and go to kill Ukrainians. They need to move to any third country if possible. Move here and fight back Russian aggression with us. In this case, the Buryats, Tatars, Ingush, and Dagestanis will cleanse their nation of the label of an aggressor who committed war crimes in Ukraine.
Victory is not only the de-occupation of the country. This is the payment of compensation, the prosecution of war criminals, the revision of existing principles and norms of international law. Revision of the work of the UN Security Council, the United Nations itself, which demonstrates absolute toothlessness, spinelessness and failure to solve some global issues and be a guarantor of the security of states and peoples.
Today we see the right of force, and there must be the force of law. Law must be strong and rights must be defended. How can it be assumed that today Russia is waging an aggressive, criminal war, which is recognized by the whole world, and that today it is chairing the UN Security Council, where it entered absolutely illegitimately?
All of these points need to be reviewed. That’s why I say when Ukraine wins, the world will be completely different. And therefore, the Caucasus and other colonial dependent peoples will receive freedom and independence. Whether the world wants it or not, these are inevitable processes that the system itself has laid down.
— Chechens in Europe faced specific treatment because the terrorist state of Russia tried to portray them in a bad light. Has the war in Ukraine changed attitudes towards Chechens? Do you feel it?
— Changed to 180 degrees. And this happened precisely because of the war unleashed by Russia against Ukraine. As soon as Putin formulated its goals and objectives – “denazification” and “demilitarization”, both the whole world and the Ukrainians themselves remembered what happened to us. “Denazification” for Russia means the destruction of the nation. “Demilitarization” meant the destruction of the state. We were labeled as international terrorists, separatists, and the world simply accepted and observed all this. In the case of Ukraine, this did not pass, because the world saw a threat to itself in the future. After the Georgian “fascists”, Ukrainian “Nazis” could go “Polish Nazis” or “Baltic fascists”. With “demilitarization” and “denazification”. They understood all this.
Largely due to the position taken by Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia and Ukraine itself, the attitude towards the Chechens and the Chechen problem has changed, and we have a chance to defend our statehood. After the victory of Ukraine, no elites – pro-Kadyrov, pro-Russian – can prevent us from doing this. And our example will be followed by other peoples of the Caucasus, and colonially dependent peoples – the Buryats, Tatars, Bashkirs. I am sure that they will vote for their national sovereignties and create their own state entities.
How it will be – on a confederal, federal basis – is already a separate issue, but the very fact and inevitability of the transformation of today’s terrorist state entity Russia is, it is necessary and it will be.
Why Russia planted Chechnya on a subsidized “needle”
— Chechnya today is a subsidized region.
– It is an artificially subsidized region. With this money they hooked me up like a drug addict on a needle. Unemployment in the Caucasus is 70-80%! They demoralize people in this way, and artificially. I am confident that all peoples will be able to survive on their own. Today they have been deprived of their economic independence, the right to their own language, the right to choose a leader. Naturally, they see no way out. It seems to them that if they lose this financial support, they will lose the opportunity to exist. They will survive and will live much better than now. I am absolutely sure of it.
“ Youth in Chechnya has been oppressed all these years. Those who disagreed were dealt with in the most cruel way, up to torture and murder. How do you assess who you will rely on or, nevertheless, they managed to intimidate them, suppress protest moods?
– You need to understand that there are not only Chechens who today are under this strong pressure and pressure organized by Russia (not by Kadyrov, but precisely by imperial Russia!). More than 500,000 Chechens today live outside of Russia. Only in Europe there are about 300 thousand of them. They have 10-15 thousand children every year. Several generations of Chechens received a good education in the most prestigious universities in the world – in America, Great Britain, and other European countries. On average, today a Chechen or Chechen woman who grew up in Europe speaks five languages. This is such a powerful potential!
There are Chechens who have preserved our fatherland, being under the yoke of Russia. And here a powerful potential has grown, which will help to revive our country.
There is not a single family on the territory of Chechnya that has not lost someone in the wars with Russia. There is not a single family whose members would not be abroad today. Therefore, the influence of Europe on the youth that grows up in Chechnya, through their relatives, is much stronger than the influence of Russia and Russian propaganda. Yes, today, unfortunately, they still cannot declare themselves.
And that is why we are talking about the need to create a tribunal for Kadyrov and investigate the creation of an extremist pseudo-Islamic religious sect that approves of the war in Ukraine and the killings in European countries. This will be a very powerful indicator for the Chechen youth on the territory of Chechnya.
I have no doubts that the idea of independence of the Chechen people, the right to their own statehood has been strengthened. In the early 1990s, Chechens had a very vague idea of what independence and an independent state meant, they treated it as a luxury item. And today the Chechen people understand that it is not only prestigious to have their own state, but also a great responsibility. And today the Chechen people are ready in principle to bear this responsibility, to build and restore their own state.
Natalia Tutunenko
Telegraf
